Posts by not a captive

99

Why FAITH is actually a form of suicide

by Terry in

jw
friends

i once heard a psychiatrist explain suicide as the ultimate act of self-preservation.

sound weird?.

counter-intuitive as that sounds, he went on to explain why.. when all you value in life is threatened you do whatever desperate act that will preserve that value.. destruction of self stops the ......process.....of consciously losing.

not a captive

We are making good faith efforts to understand, Terry

It could be that I disagree with conflating religious faith and genuine faith.

If you use the WTS as the reference point for "faith" then I will never understand what you mean. I had reasonable evidence of God before going into the Organization--faith grew from that. The WTS shoots down any evidence of God that they do not channel for the "brotherhood". Their "faith" isn't faith at all.

You don't accept the idea that faith does have a rational and personal base, do you?

20

Anyone get divorced because of differing beliefs?

by NiceDream in

lately my husband has been miserable, but isn't talking.

he is really upset that he is "stuck with me" now that he knows i question my beliefs.

i thought we could explore the bible together and i hoped he would come to the same conclusion as me, but he won't do that.

not a captive

What thoughtful posts.

My husband made it so hard for me to be a Witness. There is a difference between a person being direct, honest about the obvious ungodly weirdness of the Witnesses and a person railing and ridiculing and making derisive remarks about yourself and everything associated with the Organization. I used to have good friends who were Witnesses. I had also been around really messed up churches and church people. My non-witness parents were also rough on me for my choice to be a Witness.

My point is that none of these tactics helped their cause . To help a Witness see error the worst thing you can do is attack their good judgement. Remember, the WT attacks us in that same way--We become convinced by the Society that we are not competent to know right from wrong without their help. We are not even competent to read the Bible without their guidance.

If just once anyone could have sympathetically conversed with me as though my desire to serve God was not itself delusional it would have helped. If possible that might provide a ground for mutual respect. But that is rare to find any respect from a person that does not care for your spiritual search.

All the best. Maeve

P.S. I'm out , and life is sweet.

21

Is having "Faith" believing in something without proof? Definitions?

by Witness 007 in

yes have faith in god brothers!

he will answer your prayers......if it's "his will.

" you need to have "faith" that he is there watching over us...even if it seems like he isn't.

not a captive

Many of you know that my engineer, Bobby the Bouncer, got married today. Bobby has believed in marriage for a long time, but Bobby never exercised faith in marriage until he walked down the aisle and said "I do" to Jennifer. That's when he put his life on the line for what he believed to be true. He exercised faith

Maybe this guy's example of faith in marriage isn't the best analogy for showing what Biblical faith is. (Biblical faith?)

It isn't faith when you get married. It is faith when you think you made a mistake. You exercise faith when inspite of your misgivings you move forward lovingly, doing as you should, you endure all things , hope all things, are not selfish or indecent. In other words you learn to love in the face of failure. Only if the other truly aborts the mission do you give up.

When you reap a reward you never believed you would, then you know that you were not delusional. You were not ridiculous. You were faithful. After.

This guy doesn't know what faith is yet. Wait until he starts to have marital problems. Then he'll put his life on the line. Then we'll see how much "faith"he has.

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

We may start out on a faith journey on the smallest evidence that God exists--we may have doubts. We can't know a thing based on the evidence of others. Not even the gospels provide that conviction. But when we say "I do" on the basis of the smallest confidence then we are bound to discover if God is there for us--as we are there for him. But I don't think faith is a free gift. I think that it comes and grows through the small "yeses" that recognize God in moments of trouble.

Maeve

6

Did Jesus or Paul ever require hearers to check their brain at the door?

by nextdoorgirl in

jw
friends

the watchtower bible and tract society encourage their listeners to put implicit trust in them and obey blindly, but did jesus or paul ever use this approach?

check brains and coats at the door..

not a captive

Never! Seems like Jesus was always trying to wake up people's dead brains with his great questions.

I never liked that our thoughts got herded along in one narrow channel.

28

Would Jesus have told us the devine name was lost?

by wannabe in

some would just love to see it lost!

satan the devil maybe he`s a god!

{jehovah} 7 " 'i will make known my holy name among my people israel.

not a captive

Tec! Hello! Long-time-no-see!

I agree, Jesus' teaching was all about his relationship to his Father not getting his name "right".

The religion guys of the gospel were disturbed that he clearly claimed this relationship.

Jesus invited all who want to do his Father's will to share that Father/child relationship.

But still, is the meaning of the Name actually important? Because if it is, then wasn't that meaning manifested by the intimate involvement that the Father had with Jesus?

The way it seems to me is this: If the ultimate meaning of the Name is a big deal, then some form of it may be useful for initial introductions to us poor little orphans. But once we claim the relationship through Jesus, then we are his adopted children. He is just Abba, Father.

31

I want to be appointed as an Elder while I am still posting here, will Holy Spirit prevent me?

by african GB Member in

jw
friends

just curious.. has anyone successfully tested the 'power' of the holy spirit by being appointed even though they were not zealous jw's?.

once i get appointed, i'd resign within a week.

'coz i would'nt stand jc's and df'ing people..

not a captive

Has anyone successfully tested the 'power' of the Holy Spirit by being appointed even though they were not zealous JW's?

Dear aGBM, Do you think that God is interested in what is going on with this? How much are you really invested in this? I don't get it.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Its good to hear that you have a happy marriage and plenty of work. Even so, age is a cloud as time goes on. I am definitely not as vital for rough living as I was. But I don't have to take care of kids now, so that's better. I'm nearly 58 and my husband is 77--but a tough old bird! He lives in a world of work horses. He doesn't ride as much as he used to. Time has even slowed him down.

Yes, it seems right that Jesus would say that:"wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them". More and more it seems that any religion must automatically interfere with knowing God. The fear of a mis-step can inhibit a person's conversation with God.

Do you really feel perfectly free to converse on this board? I would not even look at this board until I had mailed my letter of disassociation. I had no idea until I was no longer concerned with being disapproved by men--not by God-- how stifling religion is. I feel free now. There is nothing that I am afraid to explore with God.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Thanks for asking, MadJ. And how are you?

I am presently nursing a chest cold from hell that my stout Irish constitution has not been able to throw off.

My work with my little boy ended one week ago. I had family show up for the festivities surrounding big changes for us all.The last of my seven kids graduated two days ago. This evening we are all converging up at the old farm where my husband and his horses live for a live band and a party to mark all these things. Its been a good time.My daughterleaves tomorrow morning. She flies away to D.C. where her two older sisters live and she will work as a file clerk this summer. She is a really bright hard working girl and got a full scholarship to a fine college in Massachusetts.

I am going to bail out of this apartment when my lease is up in a few weeks. That will put me on the dark side of the moon for a while. But can't live without internet!-- I'll have to do something about that.

I'm going to live in the country again. My crazy/wonderful husband and I haven't lived on the same property for several years but I've negotiated for the old chickencoop near the house for my work place /quarters ito insure our future is a happy one. Marriage is a funny thing; there is no point in pretending that ours has been "normal". He is pleased as can be to have me moving back. He is pushing 80 now and I don't think I'll get him off that mountain except in a pine box so we'll play it out the best way we can. There is no running water up there but we do have a wringer washer by the well house.

Well, I am waiting for the dust to settle from these days so that my internet-proficient son can scan the correspondence from the Genesis 22 papers to the Branch and the brothers so I can post them on this board for whatever that is worth. I know that I do not present thoughts always as clearly as I would like. Not that a clear presentation creates agreement between people.But at least we can kick it around.

I hope you are well.

There are interesting posts going on on a lot of topics. So many ex- JWs do not have any knowledge of God through experience because they could not have a direct experience of God as JWs that there are a high number of agnostics and atheists on the board. It has been interesting to think how religion makes God a theoretical being. All there are are doctrine wars.

Don't you think God wants us to engage with him personally, as individuals, MadJ?

64

Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff in

knowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.

these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.

no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.

not a captive

There is a woman I know who was never a Witness. She probably would be lost on this thread. For her, faith runs roughly along the lines of the "Jesus Loves Me" song that kids in those wicked vacation Bible schools would learn to sing after they had their kool-aid break.

After I had known her a while, I mentioned how my husband raised in a messed up sort of foster care had a problem with religion, God, family life and trust. Our friendship hit a deeper level at that point because she said that she understood: She'd been born into a bad situation and had been removed by the state then placed in one foster home after another, sexually abused throughout. By the time she was out of the system it was doubtful if she would be able to become pregnant and bear a child. Yet she felt so fortunate that even with health troubles annd financial woes she has managed to bear four children and see her grandchildren.

I hope for anyone reading this to allow that when I say this woman is kind, warm, simple, appreciative and possesses personal dignity, they can allow that she is as I say. She doesn't have much money but until last month when her husband died of cancer she took in foster children herself because she new how needful a safe haven is when the state gets you. I know I admire her.

I asked her how she had borne up under the misery of her early life and she said that one thing only helped her. An aged aunt had for a brief while taken her to church when she was a child. The gospel message had so moved her that she had given her heart to Jesus. And all through the terrible times of her youth she had known that she belonged to Jesus.

She has no doctrine to teach. I don't discuss Kierkegaard with her. I appreciate her humble gratitude and her frequent comments about not letting the Devil get her to thinking and feeling bad thoughts.

Most theologians would despair of her. The Witnesses would sneer at her faith. She has made me think very deeply about what Jesus brought to us.

99

Why FAITH is actually a form of suicide

by Terry in

jw
friends

i once heard a psychiatrist explain suicide as the ultimate act of self-preservation.

sound weird?.

counter-intuitive as that sounds, he went on to explain why.. when all you value in life is threatened you do whatever desperate act that will preserve that value.. destruction of self stops the ......process.....of consciously losing.

not a captive

Dear Gladiator, Faith is not a form of suicide if God really exists.

The problem is that we have to engage with God at some point ourselves before we will risk our life--right?

The life of Abraham is a good example if we want to entertain the idea that this story is worth looking at.

When Abraham had finally wandered in the desert for years believig that he wasn't just talking to himself he arrived at a point where a kind of suicide presented itself to him. What's a burnt offering of your son?

He is referenced often as a father of faith, " Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations."